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Author Topic:   Didn't he try to prevent the future?
Master Light
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posted 02-26-2003 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Master Light   Click Here to Email Master Light     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw in a recent interview that Ray wrote all those science fiction stories in the past to prevent the future. Many things he wrote about have come true in the present. And we all agree on it. But what do you mean by saying that Ray is supporting the shuttle program? I mean sure the shuttle program is terrific and we all need to know what's out there. But in most or all of Ray's space stories I've read there is a sad ending. A message that advanced technology causes destruction. Oh I might be way off but that's what I get out of it. I also heard Ray does not even fly. Well it's confusing for me but then again if Ray "claimed" that he doesn't support the shuttle program most people will think he is a lunatic.

[This message has been edited by Master Light (edited 02-26-2003).]

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Mr. Dark
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posted 02-26-2003 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. Dark   Click Here to Email Mr. Dark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Bradbury said he wrote to prevent the future, I think he meant that he wanted to prevent some futures that were bad/evil/non-actualizing, whatever. The future unfolds no matter what we do. The question lies in what direction the future will take. Will it promote humanity or will it destroy humanity? Bradbury tries to open our eyes to various possibilities. In a way, he posits possibilities and hopes we can learn from them.

As to the Shuttle program, Bradbury describes it as going round and round and not getting anywhere. He wants to see us go to Mars and beyond. He doesn't like us being trapped within our own atmosphere and planet. I have a more exalted view of it. I see us doing the Shuttle to advance our knowledge and our skills in getting into and out of the atmosphere (the dangerous part). For me the next step is a space station (which we are building) where man will learn to live in space. I see a colony on the moon next, where we can learn about interaction and existence in space long-term and working on other surfaces. I see it as part of a stepping stone.

Ray has a lot of sad endings, but he also affirms the good in man . . . his capacity to struggle, to strive, to learn, to love, to laugh and to endure.

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Nard Kordell
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posted 02-26-2003 07:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nard Kordell   Click Here to Email Nard Kordell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MasterLight:::

Only in the last decade, therabouts, has Ray decided to fly with the airlines, at least before his stroke. In fact, the first time he flew, his picture was in TIME Magazine, with a stewardess consoling him as he gripped the armrest of his seat, and tried to smile for the camera. Since working for Disneyland in Paris, he usually took the train ....from LA to New York, and then took the ....Concorde to Paris.

His last holdout: He never has learned to drive a car!

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uncle
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posted 02-26-2003 09:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for uncle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the only ways Ray could make a flight is well oiled before lift-off to remove a bit of inhibition. When he realized his fears were founded on himself. Not the the ability of the crew or plane.?. He was ok. At this point in time though I hope he does not try driving in L.A. because if it would take any fortification to get behind the wheel of a car, I think a short conversation sitting in the driveway would be just as entertaining, and half as risky.
No offence intended to California drivers I hope. And I am not Trying to offend Ray's choice on driving. I'm sure if he were younger he might try out a Segway personal transport they look like future fun transportation.

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Nard Kordell
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posted 02-26-2003 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nard Kordell   Click Here to Email Nard Kordell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
uncle:

Ray never desired to drive a car once he saw someone killed by a car in a terribly messy accident. Ray was very young at the time, and that one event did it for him with cars. Ray depends greatly on LA taxis.

My having lived in LA for about 18 years, I can say that the freeways in LA are plain nuts. Eighty miles an hour in 'Diamond Lanes' , where a car carrying more than 1 person can travel, and careening right next to a lane stopped for the backup of traffic, is completely unnerving. I've seen countless times ...people missing their off ramp, and backing up as fast as their car can go, and as slow as their car can go, and everything in between, towards the exist they missed. For, you see, if you miss a desired freeway exit in LA, you often wind up in Bakersfield, or maybe Nantucket. Who knows??

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dandelion
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posted 02-27-2003 05:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dandelion   Click Here to Email dandelion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My theory is Ray witnessed that accident at just the crucial age, 15. At 9 or 10 he'd have had years to get over it and it might not have affected him the same. At 16 he'd have already been driving and overcome that hurdle. I've seen the LA freeway, ONCE, which was quite enough. I wouldn't drive there either.

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Mr. Dark
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posted 02-27-2003 08:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. Dark   Click Here to Email Mr. Dark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw two car accidents when I was younger. In one, a car left the road, went through the air, and landed radiator-first on the other side of a large ditch. There was blood everywhere. In the second, a motorcyclist went through the side window of a car when the car ran a red light in front of him. These were when I was in about sixth grade. Since then, I have always had a great respect for the fact that cars can kill and maim. When I see people tailgating and compulsive lane-changing to save 30 seconds, it just drives me nuts. There is real risk there. A story by Robert Heinlein, "The Roads Must Roll" (or something like that) is about a future where death is just a part of the collateral damage of getting people around. We kill around 50,000 a year on our roads, yet there is no real debate about changing how we get around, or why we feel such a need to get around. We accept traffic fatalities as acceptable and necessary ollateral damage of freedom of movement. Ray is right to be nervous. When you combine this with carelessness and impatience, you have real human cost.

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fjpalumbo
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posted 02-27-2003 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fjpalumbo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My daily trek for work is 25 miles to and 25 miles back, all open & quite rural passage. Time spent is about an hour for fifty miles total. Not bad, in view of the hours some spend sitting and waiting for the car in front of them to "inch" forward, so they can then do the same. For me it is not time wasted as I listen to music, sports, Lit. tapes, or just take in the scenery undisturbed.

[IE, Recent days: - We had a 24 hr. ice storm come through last week. It has stayed well below freezing for the past several days. Now everything (and I mean "everything") is covered in crystal clear ice, an inch or two thick, with just the slightest powdering of snow added. This topping off the two feet of snow accumulated throughout the winter.

At 6:30 am the sun rises on my left and bathes the landscape in yellow, orange, and red - all sparkling off trees, bushes, hillsides, and road signs, too. By 4 pm as I return home, the sun (behind me) is going down somewhat. The ice covering now creates a prism effect on the countryside. It was absolutely brilliant yesterday. It's as if diamonds are blossoming everywhere and in the dead of winter! Pretty amazing!] Anyhow.....

On more than one occasion I have driven the East Coast from just below the Canadian border to the tip of Key West, FL. Twice around the magnificent Gaspie Penisula and through the pristine Maritime Isles. We've traversed our continent - through the Mid-west, over the Rockies, into the colorful Southwest and visited Mexico. A number of years ago we drove the winding roads of France, Italy, and Switzerland.

Each venture has left its impression, but "none" as treacherous as the two experiences on the "White-knuckle Express" known as the California Freeway! Five lanes wide, bumper to bumper, 75+ mph, cutting and slashing, then complete stops for blocks of time, to then begin the race again at break neck speeds.

To me, a novice at such transportation patterns, it appears to be an unofficial Nascar testing ground for would be racers. Or maybe, to qualify for admittance on the carnival bumper-car ride!

I was amazed at how many cars carried only one person, with the "pool" lane lonely yet wide open for business. LA, Paris, Rome, and Mexico City seem to have the same driving school certification requirements.

In any case, Mr. Bradbury - in not getting his license - again reveals his understanding of what it takes to live forever. The lose of his childhood friend left an impression that never waned as time passed. "The Crowd," I believe addressed some of the psychology beneath his views on this. Another (futuristic) interpretation of cars and their role in society is F. Leiber's "X-Marks the Pedwalk."

[This message has been edited by fjpalumbo (edited 02-27-2003).]

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lmskipper
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posted 02-27-2003 07:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lmskipper   Click Here to Email lmskipper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have always found the Bradbury Theater version of "The Crowd" to be positively creepy. By the way, I always thought the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago was one of the most dangerous I've ever been on--I actually saw a car go airborne there during an accident. But after reading your descriptions of the L.A. expressways, I'd say you've got us beat!!

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Nard Kordell
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posted 02-27-2003 09:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nard Kordell   Click Here to Email Nard Kordell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Imskipper:
Dan Ryan, at least a stretch of it, is considered one of the most dangerous expressways in America. I haved taken it, and still do, to places to Indiana....
When I was 9 years old, went thru a windshield of my parents car, head on crash. Heard someone in the other car died. With all that trauma, No...I just had to buy a stupid sportscar when I was just 20, and ...poor car...it barely survived at least 3 crashes. See, some people learn late... I mean late....(last one I cracked up was, yep, on the LA freeway, approx. 1987, making a (surprise) 90 degree turnoff of the freeway at about 70. Guess what... No go!)

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Nard Kordell
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posted 02-28-2003 04:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nard Kordell   Click Here to Email Nard Kordell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MasterLight:
Abuse of power...that is the theme Ray is trying to get across... abuse of technology... Of course, this is a far ranging subject, that will in one way or another, always be abused....
Ray has written in "The Martian Chronicles"... the abuse damage to a foreign environment...the destruction of the Martians themselves by the simple presence of our own biology on another planet.
""Warnings"".... should be stamped on Bradbury stories... saying, Beware, Take Care, Don't be Foolish..... that is sort of the future Ray wants to prevent... making the reader aware to beware...

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DemonSead
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posted 03-20-2003 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DemonSead   Click Here to Email DemonSead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now to get back to the beggining question of weather or not Ray attempted to prevent the future. I agree with Mr. Dark in saying that he tried to prevent the futures that he wrote about by writing about them. I do not agree that he didn't try to prevent future from coming. I believe that he didn't think he could prevent the future from coming but that did not stop him from trying. If you just sit around and do nothing you will gain nothing and that is a motif in many of his books. In doing this he also may of prevented many more than just the futures he thought of he may of prevented alot of very good futures as well as alot of very bad futures.

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mon411
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posted 03-30-2003 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mon411   Click Here to Email mon411     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok, i know this has nothing to do with the topics. you teachers and other people, if you type too much people won't bother to read it. so as a little bit of advice maybe you shouldn't write soo much, or you should try to say it in fewer words. That's all i have to say, cause i didn't read the posts because it was too much to read.

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lmskipper
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posted 03-30-2003 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lmskipper   Click Here to Email lmskipper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

And God forbid you should have to read very much.

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mon411
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posted 03-30-2003 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mon411   Click Here to Email mon411     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i take it back. I'll never say such a thing again!!!! you guys are more help than you could ever know and i'll read everything you guys say from now on, no matter how long it is. I PROMISE!!!!

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Mr. Dark
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posted 03-30-2003 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. Dark   Click Here to Email Mr. Dark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was criticized once in my teaching because I used too many big words. I was also told that I expected my students to read too many selections. In college, students can drop. I have several students drop every semester because the class is too demanding. But I constantly get letters and pictures and emails from students (semesters and years later) who did not drop, thanking me for challenging them.

I am not a great teacher, but thinking is work. Learning is work. My fear is that we have substituted the speed of the internet for the depth of real research. Descartes warned us that a "rush to knowledge" would inevitably result in shallow thinking. Thinking and reflection take time. Often we have to read through tons of material in order to have the kind of pool of knowledge that allows us to make real judgements and assessments.

This is called scholarship. To diminish the work is to diminish the result. Sorry about that.

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fjpalumbo
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posted 03-31-2003 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fjpalumbo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mr. Dark,
Absolutely no apology is needed! When we get posts with minimal thought and (purposefully) misspelled words, it leaves an immediate impression. When we get those occasional refreshing posts from young people who seem to "really get it," we know there is still hope. So keeping the standards high is our responsibility, not our fault! After all, Bradbury is all about "Hope!"

Before the weekend, I collected over 40 essays from 2 ninth grade classes: outlined, handwritten, proofed, re-written, and then double-spaced typed (500 words minimum). An illustration capturing the main conflict was also required.

They may not all be award winners, but they all were (hopefully!) challenging. I came in this morning and immediately was barraged with "Are our stories done yet?" So, maybe they did enjoy the work after all!

Topic of the essay: "The Illustration that was not revealed in I.M. collection" When they are corrected and returned, we read them orally in class. The students really rise to the occasion when asked to do so.

I agree. Years later when you hear from those you have influenced, it is worth all the effort and late hours. For those who contact you, there are always many more who feel the same but may not send a message.

True Scholarship can not be diminshed!

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Nard Kordell
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posted 03-31-2003 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nard Kordell   Click Here to Email Nard Kordell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

And to think....that when John Huston asked Ray if he would be interested in writing the screenplay of Moby Dick, Ray commented on that he ...could never read the darned thing.
But Ray, in turn, went home and told his wife, Maggie, that John ...asked me to read Moby Dick tonight, and to have a book report ready in the morning....

See, Mon411, voluminous reading in a short period of time is possible...

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fjpalumbo
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posted 03-31-2003 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fjpalumbo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good example, Nard!
So, mon411: Take heart. Stay tuned here for more interesting analyses (on a myriad of topics) relating to one of the greatest authors of any time. We like your spirit!!

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Mr. Dark
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posted 05-14-2003 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. Dark   Click Here to Email Mr. Dark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Once again, Ray's own writing clears things up. He sees one role of science fiction as a way of warning us against futures we can avoid; but in a great poem called, "Of What is Past, or Passing, or to Come", he compares science fiction to writing on cave walls. The poem talks about the cave drawings being done. When cave dwellers saw things and tried to figure out how to make things happen, they drew them on the cave walls first. Then they could go out and execute what they had envisioned. So for Bradbury, SciFi is a way of defining what paths we WILL pursue as well as sketching out futures we want to avoid!

"So beasts and fire that live beyond his lair /
Are drawn in science fictions everywhere. /
The walls are full of schemes that sum and teach, /
To help the apeman reach beyond his reach. /
While all his ape-companions laugh and shout: /
'What are those stupid blueprints all about?! /
Give up your science fictions, clean the cave!' /
But apeman knows his sketching chalk can save, /
And knowing, learning, moves him to rehearse /
True actions in the world . . ."

Pretty cool, huh?

(in "A Chapbook for Burnt-Out Priests, Rabbis and Ministers.")

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Green Shadow
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posted 05-14-2003 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Green Shadow     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glad to see you quoting his poetry...fascinating stuff. Ray's poetry seems to come from a different corner of his brain than his prose. But what a corner!

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dandelion
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posted 05-15-2003 03:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dandelion   Click Here to Email dandelion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Still not sure if he's right on that. Saw a show on primitive African art that said hunters drew the stalking of prey to memorialize a hunt they HAD done which proved particularly successful--wonder if any primitive peoples really drew things they were GOING to do.

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Mr. Dark
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posted 05-15-2003 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. Dark   Click Here to Email Mr. Dark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would imagine you're right. But I think Ray's view of it is that he felt they were using it to prepare for the future, and that's how he views sci fi. He takes it pretty seriously.

Now that I think about it, I would imagine Ray doesn't even care whether it's true or not. He does fiction, after all. Also, he's a poet, so images are not meant to be taken literally, they are metaphors. The image is that mankind has always speculated about the future before taking action and that it will always be so, and that as a writer, he participates in that tradition. For him, science fiction is today's manifestation of the human urge to plot the future before engaging in it. The image, not the fact, is what is important to him. In this case, the image suits his purpose.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Dark (edited 05-15-2003).]

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RAINTASTER
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posted 05-16-2003 04:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RAINTASTER   Click Here to Email RAINTASTER     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Many Years Ago A Very Wise Man Told Me,"If You Brag About Something, It Will Be Taken Away." Perhaps RB Felt That By Discussing His Fears, Those Fears Would Lose Momentum. Does That Make Any Sense? I Dunno. Just A Pot Thought.

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Ana Mafalda
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posted 05-22-2003 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ana Mafalda   Click Here to Email Ana Mafalda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mr Dark will you please tell me the page and the full information for me to quote the poem, I don't have the book and it is difficult to have access to it here in Portugal, as we don't have in our libraries books from Ray.
Thank you

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Mr. Dark
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posted 05-22-2003 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mr. Dark   Click Here to Email Mr. Dark     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Poem: "Of What Is Past, Or Passing, Or To Come"

In "A Chapbook For Burnt-Out Priests, Rabbis, And Ministers". By Ray Bradbury. Cemetery Dance Publications, Baltimore, MD. 2001. P 21-22.

Hope this helps.

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Nard Kordell
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posted 05-22-2003 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nard Kordell   Click Here to Email Nard Kordell     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WHAT!
No books by Ray Bradbury in Portugal? How can this be? Ray has to be translated into about every language. Hmm!

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